Morrissey 2006.12.18 Hamburg

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monsterH ®

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Post 21-Dec-2006 07:17

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Hi all,
First off, big thanks to "TheMonk" who taped and posted this on DIME.
Besides the quick turnaround, what I noticed was the set list. Incredible...!
Although the recording is in mono, it is very good.
Here's the original post:
MORRISSEY - Hamburg, Color Line Arena, 18 December 2006
lineage: Edirol R-09 (WAV, 16 bit / 44.1 khz) + OKM II > CD Wave (track splits) > FLAC (level 8)
This is my audience master of Morrissey's great Hamburg show. It's not a top-notch recording but not too bad either (Check the sample!). Unfortunately the external mic button was switched to "mono" and I didn't notice... so this is an "old-fashioned" monaural recording... sorry about that...
If you STILL like what you hear, PLEASE leave a comment!
SETLIST:
CD1:
01. Piano Intro
02. Panic
03. First Of The Gang To Die
04. The Youngest Was The Most Loved
05. You Have Killed Me
06. (Band Introduction)
07. Disappointed
08. Ganglord
09. I'll Never Be Anybody's Hero Now
10. William, It Was Really Nothing
11. Irish Blood, English Heart
12. I Will See You In Far-Off Places
13. Girlfriend In A Coma
14. Everyday Is Like Sunday
15. In The Future When All's Well
CD2:
01. I've Changed My Plea To Guilty
02. Let Me Kiss You
03. The National Front Disco
04. Dear God, Please Help Me
05. How Soon Is Now?
06. I Just Want To See The Boy Happy
07. Life Is A Pigsty / Auld Lang Syne
08. (Encore Break)
09. Please Please Please Let Me Get What I Want
10. Don't Make Fun Of Daddy's Voice
==================
And yes, I know this is also on the Morrissey Solo forums as a download in mp3, but this is the lossless version.
Enjoy...!
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guru_mosh

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Post 21-Dec-2006 07:37 (after 20 minutes)

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Thanks so much for sharing this! :)
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TheMonk

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Post 21-Dec-2006 08:44 (after 1 hour 6 minutes)

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Hello everybody,
unfortunately some people who downloaded my recording from Dime converted the show to mp3 without even asking for my permission and uploaded the show in all different kind of places ... sometimes even without mentioning that it is NOT their own recording...
This is EXTREMELY annoying and I might NOT upload any masters on Dime in the future if THIS is how the taper's work is appreciated...
TheMonk.
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Patrick

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Post 21-Dec-2006 11:33 (after 2 hours 48 minutes)

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Monk, I totally get how you feel. As a taper, I would not want my shows posted on various forums in lossy mp3 either. And for them not to even give credit to the original taper is a disgrace. Even reposting it here without your permission is a little suspect if you ask me. I think people should have more respect and appreciation for the tapers who actually provide their work on dime and here. I think the best thing to do would be to list your rules when posting a show to dime or here and make sure to say something along the lines of "please do not re-encode this to mp3 or post it elsewhere", etc.. and add that if your request isn't followed, you simply won't be posting any additional shows. I have thought about uploading some of my DAT masters, some of which have never been circulated... but I have been hestitant to do so for this very reason. I don't want people distributing it on other forums on mp3, selling them on ebay, etc.. I think it's fine for someone to encode the show to mp3 for their personal use (if they really want to hear a lossy version), but posting it is something else entirely. Anyway, just wanted to say thanks for the show, despite the mono, it sounds great.
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steve

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Post 21-Dec-2006 12:59 (after 1 hour 25 minutes)

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I also know how you feel. There are too many people out there who just want something for nothing ... or who think that downloading someone's recording, converting it to mp3 and re-posting it amount to a huge service to mankind. Very few of these people give any thought to the person who actually taped/filmed the thing in the first place. I've even seem people posting insults at tapers who won't upload their recordings. Of course I find it very annoying.
But ultimately I think you have to let go. There is nothing worthwhile to be gained by keeping these recordings just for yourself, while at the same time there are lots of people who would gain from hearing them. There will always be selfish idiots out there with no respect for the people who put in the effort in the first place ... but I think you get out what you put in ... if not literally, perhaps spiritually. I've always found that the more generous I am with my recordings, the more generous people are back. Sure stuff still ends up available as mp3,or hacked to pieces, or with no credit ... but that's the internet, which has many more upsides. I'm happy to post all my masters up here ... I think it's really great that there is a site like this that provides lossless downloads ... and I'd like to think if I ever wanted a copy of something in return, I'd just have to ask. There will be people who re-encode it, but at least its available to anyone who wants it in its orginal uncompressed format.
I think you just have to believe that the majority are nice decent people, who appreciate what you do.
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monsterH ®

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Post 21-Dec-2006 14:26 (after 1 hour 26 minutes)

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I really don't get to see the shows as I've used to, now having a wife and 3 kids and all, and these recordings are as close as I get these days. So I really really appreciate the efforts of the tapers.
TheMonk - I apologize if I've offended you by not asking permission to post the concert here. Patrick - you have a point, especially when it comes to the taper. Sorry...!
I know I've been guilty of reposting shows from DIME - if this offends, I'll stop doing so (eating humble pie)...
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Sictransitgloriamundi

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Post 21-Dec-2006 14:32 (after 6 minutes)

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Could someone inform me as to why one would not be able to convert and share an uploaded concert as they please?
There are many that could care less about the lossless obsession, and merely want to enjoy, what already is a compromised recording, and save space if they are an avid collector. I personally don't see why there's a heated insistence that people follow such rules. Anytime someone uploads a recording for free, it is pretty much a free for all. They should be able to do whatever it is that they like with it. I think it would be gracious for them to mention the source if they know it, but again, I don't see any rational argument as to why this must be adhered to it. It's a free, posted concert. You recorded it, shared it, and put it out there for others to manipulate as they please.
Freedom of choice.
Personally, I find the whole lossless vs. MP3 battle pretty ridiculous. I can derive just as much enjoyment from either if it's a competent conversion. It's the same silly arguments that were thrown out against vinyl vs cd. It just seems like a somewhat tyrannical way to look at sharing.
The argument over a supposed diminished enjoyment through compression is purely subjective. That's not even a remotely convincing argument. I think many people spend too much time focusing in on any subtle flaws in the format, and not enough time simply listening and enjoying the songs. There will always be people who swear that they hear a significant difference, and those who hear none. To insist that they can't understand how bad the music sounds is a pretty comical assertion.
Both formats can be posted throughout the internet, and those who seek either have the choice to download either. I've recorded gigs in the past, and when posted, I could care less what was done to them. The last thing that I want to do is act like a strong arming record company.
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steve

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Post 21-Dec-2006 15:02 (after 30 minutes)

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The basic problem with lossy formats is that the information that is thrown away is lost forever ... and that information depends on how its encoded and with what. There are plenty of people who don't know what they're doing producing really awful sounding mp3s.
I agree that people should be allowed to convert to mp3 if they want ... but it's important to retain a lossless copy, beacuse then you have all the information there is. If subsequently software becomes available to re-master that recording to make it sound better, you need to have all the information for best results.
Personally I don't understand why people choose to go with mp3, with the size and price of hard drives today, it's just not neccessary. How long does it take to download an uncrompressed CD and burn it?
The other issue is about respect for the effort other people make on your behalf and plain good manners ... although apparently there's not much of a rational argument for those, these days.
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Patrick

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Post 21-Dec-2006 15:20 (after 17 minutes)

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Could someone inform me as to why one would not be able to convert and share an uploaded concert as they please?
Spoken like a true leecher. First, it is not so much of an issue of the sound quality of lossless vs. mp3 . If the taper wanted to post an mp3 version of his recording, I'm sure he would. When tapers say they don't want their efforts transfered to mp3, it's not so much the quality (although it is definitely an issue), but also the way in which it is presented and just thrown out there without care for quality or even reference to the taper. As Steve said, it's so easy to save lossless these days, there are even portable mp3 players that play flac files (gapless), so I don't see the need for mp3 personally.
There is a lot of work that goes into taping a show. I am not talking about someone simply recording with a phone or a crappy recorder, I am talking about someone who has spent some money on decent recording gear (digital recorder, microphones, digital soundcard, etc..) and goes through great lengths to obtain a nice recording of the concert. As a taper, you are sacrificing your enjoyment of the show in order to preserve the concert. You have to smuggle your gear in, set up, and try to find a spot that will provide the best sound (forget about trying to get close to the stage, that's not happening if you are a taper). You have to be perfectly quiet (and still) during the entire concert so not to screw up the recording, while at the same time being mindful of those around you... talkers, security, etc. It's not always an easy thing. For me, I take great care and pride with my recordings. I make sure to transfer them digitally and then apply some light mastering to get the best sound possible. All this time and effort that one puts in to their recordings creates a sense of pride for their efforts and when you share it with others, you want them to know where it came from. I think that is fair and simple enough. There are people that are just oblivious to all the effort that went into providing them with this show they so happily download. That is why for me personally, I prefer to trade with other tapers only as they understand and get the art of it.
Personally, I am not saying "you are not allowed to edit or re encode my show" .... encode it to mono and mp3 at 8kbs for all I care if that's what does it for you. Toss it on your ipod and enjoy it. I am just asking that you don't post it or give it out elsewhere (in mp3 or any other format and certainly not on ebay.) If you got it here and want to post it on Dime, well ask me first. I don't see how that is such a hard request to follow given that the taper is the one that did all the work to provide you with an entertaining listening experience. The bottom line is that you should respect the rights of the person who recorded and provided the show for you. If that person doesn't care? Fine... do whatever you want. If the lineage of the download isn't known? I guess that's a gray area, but most tapers know who recorded what. Obviously if someone has a problem with taking their recording that they spent time, effort and money on... I think you at least owe it to them to honor their request of not posting it elsewhere. There is nothing hard about downloading a torrent and burning a CD straight from flac, etc...
It's a free, posted concert. You recorded it, shared it, and put it out there for others to manipulate as they please.
This is a really obnoxious comment and you have pretty much made up my mind with that statement not to bother sharing any of my recordings here, thank you. Curious, but what is the quality of your recorded gigs that you have shared? I doubt it measures up to the likes of this Hamburg show. It is people like you that make tapers not want to share with the masses and there are plenty of other tapers that feel the same.
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TheMonk

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Post 21-Dec-2006 15:34 (after 14 minutes)

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OK everybody...
we all love the music and that's why we are collecting live recordings... we all agree on that, don't we?
MONSTERH:
There's no need to apologize, you didn't upload a lossy version... so no worries about posting my recording here...
PATRICK & STEVE:
I agree with everything you are saying!
SICTRANSITGLORIAMUNDI:
You have got your own opinion on sharing and that's fine by me... but I think it's completely unjustified to call my request to ask for the taper's permission if you upload a re-encoded lossy version "a tyrannical way to look at sharing"...
The fact that I shared the concert for free on DIME makes obvious that I'm willing to spread my recordings and not keep them to myself... and why should I? But the comment that the ones who do all the work, share their stuff and try to retain the best quality are the "tyrants" is just ridiculous.
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Sictransitgloriamundi

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Post 21-Dec-2006 15:37 (after 2 minutes)

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Yes, but whether or not people take it upon themselves to convert it to mp3, and share it, the lossless format will still be out there, and be downloaded by those who clearly believe that the difference actually matters. People listen to music in different environments. Personally, I have little interest in listening to music in any other place but in my car, and at home through either headphones, or through decent PC speakers. I can't open up some ritzy hi-fi sytem and play the music like it's a live recording, nor do I have much of an interest to.
More importantly, I garner much enjoyment from being able to listen to numerous MP3's on an MP3 Disc. The result is more than sufficient because I'm not trying to listen for subtle differences in bit rate. Why would I want to try and NOT enjoy my listening experience? I'm enjoying the songs, just like I enjoyed songs from the 50's that had relatively poor recording quality. Why? Well, because a good song is a good song. Unless the audio has just eroded to the point of annoyance, it doesn't matter to my overall enjoyment.
Regardless of how cheap hard drive space is, if you're an avid music collector, it does begin to make a difference. I have over a 100 gigs of MP3 music on a single hard.
Again, manners shouldn't come into it because it's a bootleg recording. Someone generally has recorded it without the artist's permission, so by the same logic that is rude. I just don't see why permission is needed because they merely converted the format. Bootleggers can't see the irony of how doing so places them in the same basket as the "evil" record companies, who attempt to place restrictions on how their music is shared.
What this really comes down to is the notion that people who are obsessed with FLAC or SHN feel that they can engineer the music trading world, and to be honest, I find that a bit fascist. Neither format is going to kill the other, so it's silly to feel betrayed by someone converting it. It's not copyrighted. What's important is that the labeling is forthright, and that the item is effectively shared.
With that being said, I am absolutely thankful that this recording is being shared, and I personally have no interest in converting it, and spreading it in MP3 format.
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steve

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Post 21-Dec-2006 16:05 (after 28 minutes)

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Again, manners shouldn't come into it because it's a bootleg recording
now you're starting to piss me off. Your high and mighty, better than you attitude is condescending and offensive. All this shit about 'without the artists permission' etc. When I ran a bootleg cassette stall in Camden in the 80s ... and yes I SOLD the cassettes, evil, evil, evil ... we used to get loads of musicians come by to get stuff. They loved bootlegs, completely understood that we were doing it because we loved the music, were happy that we bootleged them ... some even brought us recordings. The only trouble we got was from managers and record companies who weren't getting their 'cut'. Bootlegs are for fans, and real bootleggers (not the big money gangsters who muscle in to make money) are interested in providing high quality recordings for other fans. Lots of important events would be lost if not for bootleggers.
A bootleg audio recording or film requires a lot of skill if it's any good, so why shouldn't the person who produced it care about what happens to their recording.
And why shouldn't people have good manners ... how hard is it? Sure people can just ignore perfectly reasonable requests, and call people 'evil' for daring to make them. But those people are ill mannered gits.
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steve

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Post 21-Dec-2006 17:02 (after 57 minutes)

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and while we're at it (I obviously have too much spare time today) let me add a bit about audio quality.
While I think you should absolutely have the rigkt to listen to your audio in any crappy format and on any crappy bit of equipment you fancy ... its just silly to try and make out there's no difference in audio quality between lossy and lossless formats, and that music doesn't become more enjoyable if the sound quality is better.
On a decent system (and that doesn't need to mean expensive), the difference between mp3 (particularly 128k and down) and lossless is anything but 'subtle'. Music is all about nuances ... and this is precisely what gets lost when you compress the audio. You say that a good song is a good song ... but is that really the case? You take say 'This charming man' ... a good song? What about a version by Hilda Ogden with some 3 year old playing the guitar'. Exteme example, but the better your audio, the closer you are to what Johnny actually played. You loose quite a lot by using mp3 and PC speakers over lossless files and a half decent hifi. You may not care that you can't hear the extra detail ... but that's beacuse you can't be bothered/don't think its worth it, not because the difference isn't really there or is too small to hear.
Neither format is going to kill the other
that's not quite true either. While you can always produce an mp3 from a lossless format, you can't get back to the lossless format (with all the information) from an mp3. So once you start posting an mp3 version you have effectively killed the lossless version for that line. That's the point.
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monsterH ®

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Post 21-Dec-2006 18:49 (after 1 hour 47 minutes)

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Agreed - lossless is the way to go. About 4 years or so ago, I ran out of HD space so I converted a bunch of concerts from many different artists I got from DIME into mp3 to save space. It was the biggest mistake I made. Before iPods became mainstream, I listened to everything on CDs.
Burning the mp3s to CDs was terrible - I could hear the difference in quality, and the conversion put gaps between every song, even when burning gapless. Since then I've bought another HD, archive FLACs to DVD, or burn from FLAC to CD.
Q - From the discussion above, is there a way to get FLAC into an iPod?
Also, just want to say that with Moz or Smiths shows on DIME, if they aren't here, I usually repost here to share - but I do not post shows from here on DIME (only the other way around).
Cheers...
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bclark93

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Post 21-Dec-2006 21:48 (after 2 hours 58 minutes)

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I cant believe in this year of 2006 (going on 2007) that still some people are so clueless about the damage done by creating>sharing mp3 sourced material.
Not only does it create a blind trust, it pollutes the music gene pool.
Why do you think so many collectors take the time to check the analysis/frequencies of most of the "lossless" material shared on the internet?
Because most if not all people use "blind trust" in believing the trader and or person(s) sharing labeling it as "lossless", only to find out that somehow down the trading road it was encoded to mp3>then decoded back to wav with the said person not knowing it.
This is only one of the many headaches that creating and sharing mp3's can cause.
just my 2 cents.
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