Making Sense of Troy Tate Mixes

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DavidA ®

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Post 21-Dec-2006 22:22

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Steve, my services are but a jiffy bag and a first class stamp away. Let me know if I can help.
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vinny

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Post 22-Mar-2007 19:06 (after 3 months)

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can someone seed the troy tate sessions bootleg, NOT the hand rocks the cradle one, please.
cheers
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Smelly French Boy

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Post 02-Aug-2007 06:19 (after 4 months 10 days)

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Many thanks for all this infos, I have 1 question: I buy a silver cd in 2004 on ebay called 'Troy Tate Sessions' from KOMBAT RECORDS in digipack, is it the 'core' version with the sound corrected?
TRACKS:
Reel around the fountain 6'03 /You've got everything now 4'18 /Miserable lie 4'42 /These things take time 2'41 /Wonderful woman 3'20 /Handsome devil 2'52 /Suffer little children 5'34 /Pretty girls make graves 3'32 /Hand in glove 3'22 /What difference does it make? 4'04/I don't owe you anything 4'29 /Jeane 3'00
Could someone post the better sound quality info for the alternative takes on wich boots.
Thanks in advance.
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DavidA ®

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Post 02-Aug-2007 19:19 (after 12 hours)

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Sounds like you have Set 1.
More info here:
http://www.passionsjustlikemine.com/smiths-tate.htm
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mozzer7

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Post 24-Apr-2008 05:22 (after 8 months 21 day)

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Which would you suggest is the best mix?
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SweetFA

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Post 24-Apr-2008 19:52 (after 14 hours)

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Which would you suggest is the best mix?
Hard to say, they're just different, some versions are better on "rare", some are better on "core". Suffer Little Children from the "core" and What Difference from the "rare" get my vote. I like You've Got Everything Now from "rare" and Reel Around The Fountain from the "core" best. So a mixture of the two mixes, although all alternative versions are interesting.
The Rough Mixes torrent isn't good enough quality to be compared to the other two, as interesting as it is. DavidA has a better quality version though which hasn't been seeded yet :wink:
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guidedbyvoices

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Post 24-Dec-2010 17:33 (after 2 years 7 months)

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the other new demos and alt versions that cropped up had me going back to the Tate demos for the first time in years, and trying to sort out the differences. Mostly trying to determine if any are true alternate TAKES (different band performance) vs alternate MIXES with different overdubs added or subtracted over the same basic band performance. The hardest thing is, The Smiths weren't Zeppelin, they didnt vary things too much performance to performance, so its hard as hell to tell what's an alternate performance vs an alternate mix.
So I dont have a way to lay one version on top of the other to see if there are any drum fill differences, etc, but I'm almost positive that almost all of the Tate sessions we have are the same band performances, with maybe a different vocal, and maybe with or without certain overdubs.
Here are my notes on the 14 Tate songs we have:
only one circulating version of Accept Yourself, These Things Take Time, Hand That Rocks the Cradle, plus the officially released version of Pretty Girls Make Graves.
What Difference Does it Make: this is the only one I hear truly different band performances, and all three I think are different takes. Tate 2 is in a different key (and not from speed variations), Tate 1 and the Rough Trade version are in the same key, but different song lengths, with Tate 1 being longer than the rough mix by ten seconds. So my opinion is the Rough Trade demo, and both Tates are three separate performances.
You've Got Everything Now - I *think* this is the same performance, with Tate 1's outro getting the guitar overdub, Tate 2 just fading 15 seconds later.
Jeane - Rough Trade version sounds to me an early mix of the same take on the single, the Rough Trade is shorter only because it lops off the first 0.18 seconds of the b side version.
Same band take with different vocal takes and a different mix:
Handsome Devil
Reel Around the Fountain
I Dont Owe You Anything (I think the one note bass intro on Tate 1 is just a sloppy edit)
Suffer Little Children (not sure the vocals are different, but the overdubs are definitely different)
Different mix only, no alternate vocals:
Miserable Lie (not even sure the mixes are different, just cut at the start and end in different places)
Wonderful Woman
Hand In Glove
Couple thoughts I have too on Stephane's great notes on passionsjustlikemine
Hand in Glove Tate 1 - what he labels as "flute-like" is just a harmonica with tons of reverb
the echoey "tock" on Suffer Little Children (Tate 2) and Wonderful Woman (Tate 2) sounds to me like the last beat of a click track or metronome to set the tempo that didnt get edited off. It could be Johnny tapping the tempo out on his guitar too.
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egosheep

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Post 26-Dec-2010 17:05 (after 1 day 23 hours)

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I know this has probably been asked before, but could someone PLEASE please get together a torrent of the different Tate sets, in the best quality, corrected speeds, and sorted according to the PJLM lists? I would do it if I could but I don't think I have the raw materials at my disposal.
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guidedbyvoices

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Post 26-Dec-2010 18:38 (after 1 hour 32 minutes)

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This is the "core" original tate tracks at proper speed and they sound great:
http://smithstorrents.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=139
Then this for the "rare" Tate tracks, though you can skip Jeane & Pretty Girls Make Graves, as they are the exact same as the official single releases in varying sound:
http://smithstorrents.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=435
Then this for Jeane (rough early mix) & What Difference Does it Make (early version) only:
http://smithstorrents.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=2608
I'm pretty sure that's all of them in the best available quality.
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egosheep

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Post 29-Dec-2010 20:09 (after 3 days)

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Thanks for the links/advice!
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Oso Blanco

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Post 22-Jan-2011 10:50 (after 23 days)

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On the subject of whether the "rare/polished" mixes are the final album as opposed to the "core/rough" Troy Tate demos....
I wonder if the fact that there are overdubs like the female laughter on Suffer Little Children on the "rough" versions but not on the "rare mix" is merely down to the rough demo versions being the band and Tate trying things out and adding overdubs which they intended to feature on the album but the sessions were scrapped before they actually finished rerecording them for the album.
So the rerecorded "rare mix" tracks are what would have been on the album had the recordings been completed and overdubs added.
Personally with a couple of exceptions i prefer the rough/core versions to the polished/rare mix versions but they're all interesting.
I think the rough/core versions are the final versions. Just listen to the newly surfaced version of "Reel Around The Fountain", which is being credited as the "final Troy Tate album version ... it sounds like the core version to me.
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SweetFA

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Post 22-Jan-2011 11:04 (after 14 minutes)

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On the subject of whether the "rare/polished" mixes are the final album as opposed to the "core/rough" Troy Tate demos....
I wonder if the fact that there are overdubs like the female laughter on Suffer Little Children on the "rough" versions but not on the "rare mix" is merely down to the rough demo versions being the band and Tate trying things out and adding overdubs which they intended to feature on the album but the sessions were scrapped before they actually finished rerecording them for the album.
So the rerecorded "rare mix" tracks are what would have been on the album had the recordings been completed and overdubs added.
Personally with a couple of exceptions i prefer the rough/core versions to the polished/rare mix versions but they're all interesting.
I think the rough/core versions are the final versions. Just listen to the newly surfaced version of "Reel Around The Fountain", which is being credited as the "final Troy Tate album version ... it sounds like the core version to me.
Agreed.
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pjlm

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Post 22-Jan-2011 15:01 (after 3 hours)

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No the core set are not the final versions. The differences are subtle for "Reel Around The Fountain", but they are more obvious for other songs. I think it's just that the latter song was closer to its final stage at that point, than others.
Stephane
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Oso Blanco

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Post 22-Jan-2011 15:52 (after 50 minutes)

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You mean you have the final Tate album as well? I'm speachless ...
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