On the subject of these Troy Tate outtakes

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pjlm ®

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Post 25-Apr-2011 16:19

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Okay, here's some precisions about the Troy Tate outtakes that were put up by Soundsville Paul here yesterday. The story about how Paul managed to get his hands on these has been relayed to me and, although his source was official, these are not the final Troy Tate recordings that were considered for release as they are mostly from the TATE2 set.
Actually ever since Smithstorrents user Shanker put up his analysis of the outtakes last november in this thread: http://smithstorrents.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=139&start=30 I've wanted to make corrections to my own page on the subject: http://www.passionsjustlikemine.com/songs-smiths-tate.htm Unfortunately this is still on my to-do list.
Shanker questioned the fact that I hint on that page that "TATE2 represents a more sophisticated mix that TATE1", and he is right. My description about the sound of TATE1 being rougher than that of TATE2 is misleading because it has been taken to mean that TATE1 pre-dates TATE2 and that is not the case. TATE1 was only leaked before TATE2. The TATE1 set is the one that sounds the most like the finished outtakes which have not yet leaked (but which were sent to me a while back by some very kind person).
Shanker also hints "that TATE2 might actually be from Porter's attempt at patching up the Tate recordings" which I thought to be a very interesting theory. But elements in Paul's story invalidate this. Paul, if you are reading this, are you absolutely sure that B got this tape from Troy Tate and not John Porter? If B definitely got that TATE2 set from Troy Tate then Shanker's theory is very unlikely as I don't see how Troy Tate would have ended up with John Porter's input.
It has been speculated that "Accept Yourself", the only 'new' leak in this thread, may have been taken from the TATE1 set, but this is not true because it is relatively different to the final "Accept Yourself". For the time being I have no idea what the story may be with this one. At some point soon I will take a few hours and make corrections to the Troy Tate page to take into account this new version and the ambiguous line mentioned above. I may also incorporate info about the final definitive versions, which is something I wasn't sure I wanted to do up to now because I'll then have to deal with emails by people who just can't understand that I have promised not to distribute them and I keep to my word.
Meanwhile, here's the track listing of the 14-track Troy Tate set that could have been released as the Smiths' debut album:
The Hand That Rocks The Cradle 4:57
You've Got Everything Now 4:19
These Things Take Time 2:44
What Difference Does It Make? 4:04
Reel Around The Fountain 6:14
Hand In Glove 3:23
Handsome Devil 2:54
Wonderful Woman 3:20
I Don't Owe You Anything 4:29
Suffer Little Children 6:30 (with gorgeous piano outro)
Miserable Lie 4:42
Accept Yourself 4:30
Pretty Girls Make Graves 3:40
Jeane 3:03 (quite different to the released version)
Stephane
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SweetFA

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Post 25-Apr-2011 16:30 (after 10 minutes)

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Is the version of Reel Around on that bootleg compilation LP that came out around Xmas time the same as the one on the finished outtakes that you have?
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DavidA

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Post 25-Apr-2011 18:02 (after 1 hour 31 minute)

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I was looking forward to your analysis. Many thanks.
I'm cool with you sitting on some unreleased versions. It means people are more likely to trust you with rare recordings in the future. Besides, I know they'll find their way out eventually and it's good to have accurate info until then. I'm guessing you're sitting on Drone demos, Decibel demos, Boy For My Birthday and other rarities, but that's a topic for another thread.
So the less overdubbed versions, which we've called Tate 1, were actually the ones due to be released. How close are the final versions to those that have already been circulated? The timings seem different (for the most part) and 'The Hand That Rocks The Cradle' and 'Accept Yourself' aren't included, so it sounds like neither Tate 1 nor Tate 2 are what was lined up for release.
Another mystery is what where Jeane, What Difference Does It Make and Accept Yourself came from. Previously these have been labelled as demos and that might be right since they like they're in an earlier form.
That piano coda in Suffer Little Children is indeed gorgeous. I found myself humming it earlier today thinking the same thing.
Would love to hear that alternate version of Jeane. An underrated song, in my opinion.
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DavidA

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Post 25-Apr-2011 18:35 (after 33 minutes)

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Some good analysis by guidedbyvoices in this thread.
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pjlm ®

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Post 25-Apr-2011 20:43 (after 2 hours 7 minutes)

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Is the version of Reel Around on that bootleg compilation LP that came out around Xmas time the same as the one on the finished outtakes that you have?
Yes. That bootleg version was actually lifted from an in-house cd-r of a planned bonus disc for "The Very Best Of The Smiths" (from 2001) which was circulated amongst record company people and 'consultants' such as myself at the time. All other tracks on that cd-r made the bootleg. I think I posted the info about this on the Smithstorrents page where the bootleg was shared. Or I posted this to Moz-solo and someone copied it here.
Stephane


Last edited by pjlm on 2011-04-25 23:33; edited 1 time in total
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pjlm ®

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Post 25-Apr-2011 20:57 (after 14 minutes)

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How close are the final versions to those that have already been circulated? The timings seem different (for the most part) and 'The Hand That Rocks The Cradle' and 'Accept Yourself' aren't included, so it sounds like neither Tate 1 nor Tate 2 are what was lined up for release.
They are very close. They could actually be the same but its difficult to say for sure because of the sound quality. The versions I have are pristine and I hear stuff (like echo, studio effects, background notes, overdubs etc) that I can't hear on the bootleg versions, or that sound differently. I originally assumed that this was because my versions featured extra overdubs or post-production, but now I think it may just be because of the distortion introduced in the bootleg versions by the transfer from tape to tape. I have actually just put all the versions out there in one folder to compare everything and the TATE1 set, in its best form, sounds much more like the final version than I originally thought. It doesn't help that the intros or outros are sometimes slightly chopped on TATE1. Or that some other songs are faded out before the end.
The fact that the TATE1 set lacks a few songs compared with what I have doesn't mean anything. All TATE1 bootlegs go back to the same source. That first bootlegger may have decided for some reason to withhold a few songs.
Stephane
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soundsville

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Post 26-Apr-2011 01:47 (after 4 hours)

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I'm 90% sure that's where they came from, that's what I was told at the time (around late '86 early '87)
I'm not sure how Porter could try and clean up stuff he described as "out of tune and out of time" that does not make sense to me.
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pjlm ®

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Post 26-Apr-2011 02:19 (after 32 minutes)

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I'm 90% sure that's where they came from, that's what I was told at the time (around late '86 early '87)
I'm not sure how Porter could try and clean up stuff he described as "out of tune and out of time" that does not make sense to me.
I'm saying this because B worked with Porter in the mid 1980s. They would have been in contact quite a lot around that time and Porter may have given him that cassette then.
That TATE2 set might be Porter's attempt at remixing the Tate recording (which he was originally asked to do). Perhaps it's after this that he said he had to re-record the material.
One way or another, thanks very much for sharing these.
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Disorder

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Post 26-Apr-2011 02:23 (after 3 minutes)

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I'll then have to deal with emails by people who just can't understand that I have promised not to distribute them and I keep to my word.
Honor is more important then sharing. It’s always nice to make everyone happy, but maintaining the trust vested in you is what defines you’re character.
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Oso Blanco

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Post 26-Apr-2011 05:02 (after 2 hours 39 minutes)

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Is the version of Reel Around on that bootleg compilation LP that came out around Xmas time the same as the one on the finished outtakes that you have?
Yes. That bootleg version was actually lifted from an in-house cd-r of a planned bonus disc for "The Very Best Of The Smiths" (from 2001) which was circulated amongst record company people and 'consultants' such as myself at the time. All other tracks on that cd-r made the bootleg.
So all the tracks on this bootleg came from a CD-R? Then why didn't bootlegger make it a CD bootleg? Arrrgggghhhh!
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DavidA

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Post 26-Apr-2011 07:01 (after 1 hour 58 minutes)

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Y'know, we could just ask John Porter.
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SweetFA

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Post 26-Apr-2011 07:14 (after 12 minutes)

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So all the tracks on this bootleg came from a CD-R? Then why didn't bootlegger make it a CD bootleg? Arrrgggghhhh!
They knew within 5 mins of a CD bootleg appearing in someone's letterbox it'd be ripped and uploaded to the Internet and someone else could produce an exact copy.
Do it on Vinyl and it takes longer for someone to do that, and the copy won't be perfect (without someone like Drew tidying it up), giving them chance to sell the stock they've had pressed.
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drew

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Post 26-Apr-2011 12:18 (after 5 hours)

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Still looking for the "Tate 1" set of tracks, particularly the "Suffer Little Children" piano coda, to show up in as nice quality as the "Tate 2" tracks have... It's odd how the newer findings of rare-r material sonically outshine the better-known set(s)...
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dara

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Post 28-Apr-2011 15:29 (after 2 days 3 hours)

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Johnny Marr was just asked on Twitter if John Porter ever attempted to "re-mix the Troy Tate Smiths" and Johnny said 'I don't think so."
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DavidA

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Post 28-Apr-2011 19:34 (after 4 hours)

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Good spot.
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