The Smiths on MusicBrainz

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Miblo ®

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Post 31-May-2009 20:49

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Hallo folks!
As I mentioned over on the Last of the English Roses thread, I've recently joined MusicBrainz and begun contributing to its database the concerts I'm downloading from here. Not the concerts themselves, but the information about them. To see what I've done so far you can visit the entry for The Smiths, and scroll down to the Live Releases (sorry, no bookmark tag!), where you'll find titles beginning YYYY-MM-DD. I've had a hand in all of these, to a greater or lesser degree:
  • From merely removing the existing Release Event for the two Hacienda gigs from 1983 (4th February and 7th July), since according to MusicBrainz's style guides bootlegs shouldn't have a release date
  • to renaming such gigs as "Live in Madrid" to be inline with MBz's style guide
  • and contributing entire releases from scratch, such as the one at London's Venue on 15th August 1983[/list:u]In addition, for all of these I've added relationships to their Passions Just Like Mine page, and to their page on here, from where I downloaded them (or, at least, from where they can be downloaded).
    As for those bootlegs that aren't named according to this "YYYY-MM-DD: [Title: ]Venue, City, Country" format - excluding, of course Rank, and also The Peel Session EP, which I think is official - I haven't yet figured out how they are supposed to be named, since they contain a motley collection of songs from different gigs, so I've just left them alone for the time being.
    In short, my question over on the Last of the English Roses thread was, if our sharers could possibly tag the audio tracks according to MusicBrainz's database, using their Picard software, so that we can all download the torrents, have the music beautifully organised in our collections, and continue to seed them back to the community. My current method is to download torrents, seed them back until their ratio is 1, and then remove them from rTorrent and tag the files with Picard. The videos I can happily seed forever, because they don't (as far as I know) have metatags like audio files.
    But one thing we can all do as a community, even if we don't have wonderful recordings to share like DavidA, steve, the Flea and the rest (sorry I'm new here, and haven't yet got to know all our hardcore sharers!), we can contribute to MBz our knowledge of these recordings as I've begun to do.
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DavidA

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Post 31-May-2009 23:05 (after 2 hours 15 minutes)

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First off, great post. Thanks for the links too.
For those reading this that don't know of MusicBrainz, it's a database and software that will tell correctly identify a collection of tracks and then name them for you appropriately. In the past I've pointed the software Picard at a directory of unknown MP3s and it's sorted them into albums for me, correctly metatagging them along the way. It's a little like Shazam but at a greater level of fidelity.
I like the idea of creating some consistency in the releases. A few years ago my concern was that the gigs wouldn't get out there; now my concern is that there's so many that they could get muddled. Ever since this site started I've been trying to find a way of organising them better.
Is there a place at MusicBrainz to add notes on the release? Most importantly the source (e.g. Soundsville Steve), but also further release notes such as Steve includes in a text file. Right now for instance, there's no way to tell which Amsterdam gig is which.
On the assumption that people agreed that it was a good idea, there are a few ways to fix the seeding problem. I could replace all the .torrent files here with their MusicBrain equivalent and then find a painless way for people to re-seed. I think it might be unrealistic to expect those people sharing their original recordings to adopt the system and I wouldn't want to put anything in their way, but I'll let those people speak for themselves. Personally, I don't have much more to contribute.
Other ideas that might help: my long promised HD tour could actually happen with correctly tagged gigs ready to seed. I also have a 100mbit synchronous line which I could host them on.
I'd be interested to hear what others think.
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Miblo ®

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Post 01-Jun-2009 09:20 (after 10 hours)

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Ah, it seems I skimmed over quite a vital part: Regarding links to websites where releases are freely downloadable, such as the ones I've been creating pointing to threads on this forum, MBz's style guide explains that such a link 'must be used only when permission by the rights holder is explicitly given'. MBz contributor mudcrow alerted me to this in a note on each of the five releases I linked, one of which you can see here. In this one (s)he also says that torrent sites shouldn't be used for such a relationship, so even if our rights holders do give their permission I'm not entirely sure we won't be 'out-of-bounds', as it were, with regards to being a possible target for links. The style guide, however, doesn't mention torrent sites, so maybe we'll be alright after all, provided that explicit permission is given on the site that these files are freely available for anyone to download (so long as they have an account, of course).
This is all assuming that our wonderful sharers (would) happily give their permission for their stuff to be freely downloaded! This legal business of rights and so forth does my head in as well (for the most part), but if these are the rules then I reckon they must be followed with the same precision we apply to our actual contributions (i.e. release dates, track names, lengths, etc.) to the database itself.
Regarding notes, DavidA: there fortunately is a place to add them. See the difference between the already existing bootleg from Holland and the one I added myself. The latter has an annotation containing a link to our WaxlyMolding's thread for the gig and a description (quoted from here) of terrapinstation's remastering work. I don't know the size limit for these annotations, but if its unlimited then the full release notes that steve gives us will certainly have a place there.
Okay, that's enough to chew over for now. We'll do the re-seeding of updated torrents later.
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DavidA

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Post 07-Jun-2009 19:01 (after 6 days)

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I understand a little more now.
So the advantages would be:
- Lets people identify unknown tracks.
- Lets people consistently name tracks easily.
- Lets people easily look up details about the gig?
Is that right?
Also, what is the file naming convention. I can't seem to find it on the site..
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Miblo ®

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Post 08-Jun-2009 18:47 (after 23 hours)

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Yeah, I'd say so, David.
The identifying of unknown tracks works best when a Portable Unique IDentifier (PUID) for the file has been submitted to MBz, then in Picard we can Scan the unknown and untagged file, Picard will then search MBz's database for a corresponding PUID, and tag the file accordingly.
The information about file naming is hidden here in the Wiki. The default is to name it: "{Artist}/{Album}/{TrackNumber} {Title}.{Extension}", more or less (if you're not on a Unix-like OS, those /'s will be \'s). Although I've changed my default to include the date of the release before the name of it, so one directory in my "Smiths, The" directory is called "1984-02-20. The Smiths", and I like a full-stop after the track number, so I'd have "01. Reel Around the Fountain.mp3". But this is really nit-picking, and you can name the files how you like. The important thing for MBz is the tagging of the tracks.
For our Bootlegs, I'd say the directory should be called something like "1986-07-16: Barrowlands, Glasgow, UK", and the tracks then "01. [intro].flac", "02. Bigmouth Strikes Again.flac", etc., but, like I say, that full-stop after the track numbers is only my personal preference, and Picard's default behaviour would be to name them "01 [intro].flac" and "02 Bigmouth Strikes Again.flac".
Incidentally, this example I've given is the latest Smiths addition I've contributed to MBz, which you can see here.
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XAVeRY

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Post 08-Jun-2009 20:15 (after 1 hour 27 minutes)

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I'll gladly get into it once the semester at the university ends. That is, unless you do all the work yourselves. ;)
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Miblo ®

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Post 08-Jun-2009 20:54 (after 39 minutes)

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Flaming hell, XAVeRY! This is quite something to imagine!
One thing I have considered, though, is working my way through all of the recordings on here and contributing them to MBz without their track lengths (because I need to download them to know that), and then anyone who has downloaded (or even created) them can come along and add the missing information.
But, yeah, like you, I have University work (revising) to do, and will be able to press on with gusto after the 17th June.
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XAVeRY

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Post 09-Jun-2009 02:10 (after 5 hours)

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I've got a collection of approx. 120GB of Smiths recordings, downloaded from here. I know that's not really a lot, but I'll try to help out with this as much as I'm able to. Having such a database would be a really cool thing in my opinion.
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Miblo ®

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Post 14-Jun-2009 00:57 (after 4 days)

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Yeah, XAVeRY, I think it'd be a really cool thing.
We may want to coordinate our efforts in some way. Perhaps do a post in this thread containing all of the recordings we have on here, possibly with links to their respective threads; then we can allocate batches of recordings to each of us, which we then go and contribute to MBz; and when a given recording is in MBz we can add a link to its entry over there. Also, due to this of the track lengths, we could possibly do with putting some sort of notification here if the recording has been entered into MBz without the lengths, so that somebody who has downloaded it and has this information can trot over to MBz and contribute it. That's unless you've got every recording tucked away in your 120GB stash, XAVeRY! In which case, we can share the bulk of the contributing, and then once I've done my bit and flagged recordings up as 'missing length info', you can go in there and add the lengths.
Welcome aboard, sir!
P.S. We needn't leave old Morrissey out of this, only I've just been concentrating on The Smiths thus far.
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Miblo ®

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Post 28-Jul-2009 21:54 (after 1 month 14 days)

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Okay, let's get this show on the road.
We have to start somewhere, so since I was born in 1986 I'm going to start with that year, listing all of the recordings we have on here in chronological order, and then move over to MusicBrainz to put them in the database. Only a handful of them will be complete with track lengths, and I'll really appreciate your help with contributing the track lengths for the incomplete ones. Incidentally, the recordings are the 55 matches from searching for "1986" in the Smiths Audio forum, and I may have missed some or some may have crept in which shouldn't be here. Either way, here goes:
1986
1986-02-08: Royal Court, Liverpool, UK (MBz incomplete)
1986-02-10: National Stadium, Dublin, Ireland (MBz incomplete)
1986-02-12: Whitla Hall, Queens University, Belfast, UK (MBz incomplete)
1986-07-16: Barrowlands, Glasgow, UK (MBz)
1986-08-02: Capital Congress Centre, Ottawa, ON, Canada (MBz incomplete)
1986-08-26: Universal Amphitheater, Studio City, Los Angeles, CA, USA (MBz incomplete)
1986-08-28: Thank Your Lucky Stars: Irvine Meadows, Laguna Hills, CA, USA (MBz)
1986-09-08: McAlister Auditorium, New Orleans, LA, USA (MBz incomplete)
1986-10-19: Leisure Centre, Newport, UK (MBz incomplete)
1986-10-26: Palladium, London, UK (DJ mix) (MBz incomplete - also may require further attention)
1986-10-27: Guildhall, Preston, UK (MBz incomplete - do we feel this one should be included with the Newport gig?)
Wonderful Woman (MBz)
And here I hit a stumbling block, so I'll do this first lot, and then put in some consideration of how to treat this Canada performance. As I contribute them to MBz, a (MBz incomplete) sign will go up beside the respective bootleg with a link to its MBz entry. This post will finally be editted to list all of 1986 in the order in which it will appear in MBz (i.e. in chronological order, with named bootlegs from various dates, such as Wonderful Woman, bringing up the rear).
End of day update, 28th July 2009
These are all now in, and I'll continue with the rest later. Just a couple of questions arose: 1) Should the 1986-10-26 DJ recording be split into tracks, and then contributed more logically to MBz; and 2) Should we treat the Newport and Preston gigs as one bootleg, like steve has done with his torrent? Other than that, I think this first short phase has gone quite smoothly. The 'What She Said (with Rubber Ring intro and outro)' has posed a slight problem, with my initially being undecided as to how to name it (considering 'Rubber Ring / What She Said / Rubber' to indicate it as appearing both before and after the main song, as well as 'What She Said (with Rubber Ring intro and outro)' as it is called on here), but I eventually plumped for 'Rubber Ring / What She Said', thinking that this makes reasonable sense. None of the bootlegs I've downloaded contains this "medley" so I don't know how it sounds, and if you have any thoughts on what it should be called, please let me know, or go straight to MBz and make an edit. Discussions can also be held over there.
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Miblo ®

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Post 29-Jul-2009 21:02 (after 23 hours)

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Change of tactic
To streamline things a bit, I've found it makes more sense to directly search the tracker for "1986" while using the following options:

Perhaps the optimum method would be to sort the results in Ascending order of when they were registered, so that by the time I get to the end, if another show has been uploaded while I've been working, I'll just finish off by adding it as usual; whereas this way if a new one is added, it'll appear at the top of the list. But, I prefer this way because I think these more recently contributed concerts will be more straightforward for me to get into MBz, and when I get to the earlier ones I'll have picked up enough reasoning along the way to let me work out how/if any details need to be altered/refined when transferring them to MBz's database.
Really I'm just whacking this up in case anyone (XAVeRY) is keen to help out, so we can possibly coordinate our efforts and know where each one of us is up to.
Now, I'm sorry to duplicate, but I think the previous post with the first tentative steps of this project ought to stay intact, so I'll now create a new post containing only the list of concerts from 1986, and will continue to edit this new post as I get the stuff over to MBz.
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Miblo ®

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Post 29-Jul-2009 21:05 (after 3 minutes)

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Recordings of The Smiths from 1986, with links to their forum and MusicBrainz entries
1986-02-08: Royal Court, Liverpool, UK (soundcheck) (TODO)
1986-02-08: Royal Court, Liverpool, UK (Steve's master tape) (MBz incomplete - may need to be renamed)
1986-02-08: Royal Court, Liverpool, UK (TheBigBopper's master tape) (TODO)
1986-02-10: National Stadium, Dublin, Ireland (MBz incomplete)
1986-02-11: Fairways Hotel, Dundalk, Ireland (soundcheck) (TODO)
1986-02-12: Whitla Hall, Queens University, Belfast, UK (MBz incomplete)
1986-07-16: Barrowlands, Glasgow, UK (soundcheck) (TODO)
1986-07-16: Barrowlands, Glasgow, UK (the Flea's version) (TODO - need to check about versions)
1986-07-16: Barrowlands, Glasgow, UK (Steve's version) (MBz)
1986-07-17: Mayfair, Newcastle-Upon-Tyne, UK (MBz incomplete)
1986-07-19: Royal Command Performance: G-Mex Festival, Manchester, UK (TODO)
1986-07-19: G-Mex Festival, Manchester, UK (more complete FM version) (TODO - possibly superfluous, so may not contribute to MBz)
1986-07-19: G-Mex Festival, Manchester, UK (FM version) (MBz)
1986-07-19: G-Mex Festival, Manchester, UK (Paul's version) (TODO)
1986-07-20: University of Salford, Salford, UK (MBz incomplete)
1986-07-30: Centennial Hall, London, ON, Canada (MBz)
1986-08-02: Capital Congress Centre, Ottawa, ON, Canada (MBz)
1986-08-05: So This Is America: Great Woods Performing Arts Center, Mansfield, MA, USA (MBz incomplete)
1986-08-06: Money Changes Everything: Pier 84, New York, NY, USA (MBz incomplete)
1986-08-08: Charles E. Smith Athletic Center, George Washington University, Washington, D.C., USA (MBz incomplete)
1986-08-12: Fulton Theater, Pittsburgh, PA, USA (MBz incomplete)
1986-08-15: Aragon Ballroom, Chicago, IL, USA (MBz incomplete)
1986-08-16: Performing Arts Center, Milwaukee, WI, USA (MBz incomplete)
1986-08-22: Arlington Theater, Santa Barbara, CA, USA (MBz incomplete)
1986-08-23: Greek Theatre, Berkeley, San Francisco, CA, USA (MBz incomplete)
1986-08-25: Universal Amphitheater, Studio City, Los Angeles, CA, USA (MBz incomplete)
1986-08-26: Universal Amphitheater, Studio City, Los Angeles, CA, USA (MBz)
1986-08-26: The Longuest Day: Universal Amphitheater, Studio City, Los Angeles, CA, USA (corrected) (TODO - possibly even superfluous, some discussion perhaps?)
1986-08-28: Thank Your Lucky Stars: Irvine Meadows, Laguna Hills, CA, USA (MBz)
1986-09-08: McAlister Auditorium, New Orleans, LA, USA (MBz)
1986-10-13: Sands Centre, Carlisle, UK (robbo123's version) (TODO - slightly unsure of how to name this one)
1986-10-13: Sands Centre, Carlisle, UK (Steve's version) (TODO)
1986-10-14: Town Hall, Middlesbrough, UK (robbo123's version) (TODO - slightly unsure of how to name this one)
1986-10-14: Town Hall, Middlesbrough, UK (Stephane's version) (TODO)
1986-10-14: Town Hall, Middlesbrough, UK (Steve's version) (TODO)
1986-10-17: St. Austell's Coliseum, Cornwall, UK (MBz incomplete)
1986-10-18: Leisure Centre, Gloucester, UK (MBz incomplete)
1986-10-19: Leisure Centre, Newport, UK (MBz)
1986-10-23: Dance With Octopusses: Kilburn National Ballroom, London, UK (MBz incomplete)
1986-10-23: Kilburn National Ballroom, London, UK (DJ version) (TODO)
1986-10-23: Kilburn National Ballroom, London, UK (DSat) (TODO)
1986-10-24: Genius Steals: Brixton Academy, London, UK (MBz)
1986-10-24: Brixton Academy, London, UK (MBz incomplete)
1986-10-26: Palladium, London, UK (Fall Fan's version) (TODO - slightly unsure of how to name this one)
1986-10-26: Palladium, London, UK (DJ mix) (MBz incomplete - also may require further attention)
1986-10-27: Guildhall, Preston, UK (MBz incomplete - do we feel this one should be included with the Newport gig?)
1986-10-30: Almost Over: Free Trade Hall, Manchester, UK (MBz incomplete)
1986-10-30: Free Trade Hall, Manchester, UK (MBz incomplete)
1986-12-12: Royal Command Performance: Brixton Academy, London, UK (MBz incomplete)
1986-12-12: Never Had No One Ever: Brixton Academy, London, UK (MBz incomplete)
1986-12-12: Brixton Academy, London, UK (MBz incomplete)
Morrissey 1959-1986 (TODO)
Red Wedge (TODO - unsure of how to name this one)
Wonderful Woman (MBz)
(54 recordings)


Last edited by Miblo on 2009-08-03 21:27; edited 7 times in total
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XAVeRY

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Post 31-Jul-2009 23:41 (after 2 days 2 hours)

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The following entries are now MBz complete :
1986-08-02: Capital Congress Centre, Ottawa, ON, Canada (MBz)
1986-08-26: Universal Amphitheater, Studio City, Los Angeles, CA, USA (MBz)
1986-09-08: McAlister Auditorium, New Orleans, LA, USA (MBz)
1986-10-19: Leisure Centre, Newport, UK (MBz)
I also took the liberty of creating the following entries, which as of now are MBz complete :
1986-07-19: G-Mex Festival, Manchester, UK (FM version) (MBz)
1986-07-30: Centennial Hall, London, ON, Canada (MBz) (I know about the disputes, I just chose to treat the recordings as 1986-07-30, this will probably never get sorted out anyway ;P)
I'm going to start from The Smiths' first recordings, since those are my favorites. Progress will be posted as I go, I'll also post a full "todo" list tomorrow.
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Miblo ®

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Post 01-Aug-2009 00:21 (after 39 minutes)

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XAVeRY, XAVeRy, thank you very much!
Having only turned my laptop on to seed my torrents, I mustn't stick around to enhance my list with your improvements since I have to be awake quite early to go and entertain a newly married couple (and guests) in Bradford. But seeing the e-mail regarding your post I couldn't go to sleep without thanking you.
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Miblo ®

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Post 02-Aug-2009 17:05 (after 1 day 16 hours)

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Okay, a little more progress has been made. The TODO list for 1986 is complete, and the task is now to contribute the recordings to MBz. Some of them still need more thought, and perhaps somebody knowledgeable could possibly help with determining if any of these recordings are duplicates, or have been superseded by a lower generation recording. Obviously there's no need to contribute each generation of a recording to MBz, because they all stem from the same source, and it's only the source we're interested in. And then for the soundchecks, I'll have to work out how the tracks should be named (i.e. suffixing the title with "(cut)" or "(instrumental)", and such like).
Other than that, I think we're more-or-less good to get them into MBz. I've actually skipped past some of the ones I'm unsure about, and have just done the 1986-08-08 gig.
Old XAVeRY is starting on his own set of recordings, so any help for either of us would be really really appreciated.
Oh, and just one thing about the "Rubber Ring / What She Said" medley: I'm downloading the Salford set from 1986-07-20 so I can hear this one, and I may decide that it should be called "Rubber Ring / What She Said / Rubber Ring". Stay tuned to see what happens.
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